‘Identity awareness among Gypsies emerged with the Roma initiative’
Zero Discrimination Association President Elmas Arus: Surveys show that the majority of Roma describe themselves first as 'Turk' then 'Muslim' or first as 'Muslim' then 'Turk'
In a geography where national identities are ignored, sects are rendered invisible and genocides are experienced, we are faced with a problem that has a very old historical dimension but has recently come to the agenda. Gypsies! A problem that is as serious as the Kurdish, Armenian, Assyrian and Alevi problems but has been seen and ignored. It is very difficult to say that neither the Turkish democratic movement, nor the Kurds, nor the Armenians, nor the Alevis have a tangible discourse and solidarity regarding the Gypsies.
Why is the attitude of those who are marginalized towards Gypsies marginalizing? Is the Roma problem an ethnic problem or a socio-cultural problem? What were the differences in the approach to the issues of nation, identity, language and culture among Roma before and after the "Roma Initiative"? I spoke to civil activist and Zero Discrimination Association President Elmas Arus about the problems of Gypsies and solution parameters, primarily the questions of whether Gypsies have a role in the “negotiation” and “peace” process.
Mr. Arus, we know that there are different identity groups among Gypsies. Can you give us brief information about this group of people with whom we share the same geography?
There are four groups defined as Gypsies in Turkey. The first is the Roma groups, which we call Rom. The second is the Dom, who live in Southeastern and Eastern Anatolia, the group called “Kurdish Gypsies”. The third is the Lom, who live in the Black Sea region and are also called “Armenian Gypsies”. As a footnote, there are those who react to the Dom Gypsies being called “Kurdish Gypsies” and the Lom Gypsies being called “Armenian Gypsies”. The fourth is the Abdal groups, who originate from Central Asia and live like other Gypsy groups and are a nomadic people. When looked at from the outside, they appear to be the same as the other groups in terms of their lifestyle and cultural characteristics. However, they define themselves as “Abdal” and not as gypsies or other groups.
Historians and sociologists say that the Roms, Doms and Loms are sister groups and started migrating from India between the 5th and 9th centuries. However, no one can say anything definitive about the reason for the migration. They emphasize hunger, famine, civil wars and attacks in India as possible assumptions. All three groups set off together and came to Iran. They were divided into three groups in Iran, the Dom groups followed Eastern and Southeastern Anatolia and went all the way to North Africa. The Lom groups followed the Black Sea region and reached Siberia. The Romani groups went from the middle of Anatolia to the Balkans, from there to Europe, and from Europe to America. Since Turkey is on the migration route of these communities, all three groups live collectively in Turkey.
We know that the state’s approach to other national identities and sects, including Gypsies, is problematic. How do you evaluate the approach and relations of other national identities, such as the Kurds, towards Gypsies?
The Diyarbakır area provides concrete data for us regarding the relations of Kurds with Gypsies. It is estimated that 14 thousand Doms live in Diyarbakır. The Doms are a closed society, introverted. Their pain, victimization, mourning, everything is not visible to the other members of the society, namely the Kurdish communities who are just as oppressed and persecuted as them. This is a surprising handicap in itself.
The Doms have almost no contact with the Kurds. There is serious social discrimination by these communities, keeping them outside the opportunities of that place, not establishing any ties, and being left outside.
Can you give us concrete examples that you can share on this subject?
In the information shared with us by the Dom Association managers in Diyarbakır, for example, they complain about not being able to send our Dom girls to the market, bazaar or the streets. They state that they are looked upon with a bad eye and that they perceive our girls as frivolous. Dom children are not given jobs in the region. Because the dominant idea is that Doms are "thieves", "beggars", and "evil". Therefore, they are afraid of other members of society and do not want to get together with the Kurds.
It was reported in the press that Abdals were not allowed into the cemevi in Antep. Can you provide information on this?
Rather than not being allowed into the cemevi, Abdals do not want to go to the cemevi. They feel that they are excluded as Gypsies in the cemevi. We had shot a documentary film called “Journey to the Dervish Lodge”. We met with the Abdal groups in Gaziantep during the documentary film work and then we were together in the association process. We still continue our struggle to seek rights together with their associations.
They told us the following; “We now want to abandon our Alevi and Bektashi beliefs.” When I asked, “What are the reasons that push you to speak so harshly?” they gave the following answer: “Even our masters exclude us.” According to what they said; They go to Hacı Bektaş, bring them gifts, but when it comes to a relationship of equals, they are always at the bottom, at the back as a protocol. This hurts them, makes them resentful, and they never go to the dervish lodge again. If you are wondering if there is discrimination in religion, you see discrimination as obvious as in this example.
On the other hand, Gypsies have internalized and trivialized discrimination so much that what is done no longer touches them, does not hurt them, they remain unresponsive. They say, “We are following the path we believe in, we do not care what they say.” But for us who are looking from the outside, it is such a hurtful and painful situation.
If we put a comma on the general perception, how do you evaluate the approach of Turkish, Kurdish, Armenian, Alevi and other civil society organizations to the problems of Gypsies and their relations with you?
They have no relations!
Why?
Yes, we have to ask why? You remember the Selendi incident. In January 2010, 76 Romani people in the Selendi district of Manisa were attempted to be lynched by local people. Again, in Bursa, the houses and workplaces of Romani people were burned in a neighborhood. Except for one or two of the thousands of civil society organizations, no one spoke out. Isn’t it very interesting?
Other civil society organizations do not see the victimization experienced by the Roma as a human rights issue. You notice that civil society organizations that should have social sensitivity do not see the problem, are indifferent and do not contact us.
There has recently been movement with the networks formed among civil society organizations. But for others, the victimization experienced by the Gypsies is still a foreign problem to them.
We are going through a process called “negotiation” for a possible solution to the Kurdish problem, for “peace”. Is there a role for the Gypsies in this process, if so, what is it?
The solution process concerns other peoples living in the country, as well as the Roma and groups living like the Roma. But the Roma people were generally neither aware of this process nor interested in it...
Why were they not interested?
Because the Gypsies were neither included in the solution process nor did anyone come and ask about their problems. In addition, they have no relations with any side of the system. They experience such deep wounds and pains in a closed society that they are unaware of peace and negotiation. They are not interested in what social peace will bring or take away from them.
They are concerned with feeding their stomachs. Because they do not have a political or social perspective. The most they can see is the situation of individuals within their own society. That is why they are not very open to the outside. Therefore, this process did not interest them much. However, there is a situation that affects them as well.
What kind of an effect could this be?
Kurds and Gypsies live in the same geography and all kinds of social developments and upheavals directly affect their lives. They should have been involved in the peace process. They should have shared the absence just as they share the presence. Unfortunately, they are not aware of this. In fact, more than being aware, since they have no ties to anyone outside of themselves, they have not been concerned with the problems of others. Since others have not established ties to them, they have not been concerned with the problems of Gypsies.
As for the “Roma Opening”, how do you evaluate this process, which the AK Party government calls a part of the democratization process?
I care about this. If we go back historically, with the establishment of the Republic of Turkey, all nations were accepted as citizens of the Republic of Turkey. One of these nations was the Roma. Roma are a group of people who have lived in the system until today without knowing what is happening in the lower class, accepting poverty, exclusion and discrimination. They have always developed a policy of escaping, running away, being afraid and hiding, in other words, to survive and live wherever they go. Maybe I think that the Roma owe their ability to come to this point and exist despite enduring so much pain to this attitude.
Don’t you describe this as a situation that is the positive of the negative?
Yes, it is. With the Roma initiative, the consciousness of nation and identity began to form among the Gypsies. “We also existed and were a nation!”, “We also had many problems!”. There is an example that I always give. A workshop was held during the Roma initiative and I was also a part of that workshop.
All of our Roma entered the hall with “Turkey” bands on their foreheads, Turkish flags in their hands, and chanting “We are Turks, we are Turks!” For the first time, there is a minister who addresses them on behalf of the state and they are at the table as a party. I cannot describe this excitement, this atmosphere! Anyway, before the minister even starts speaking, they are saying “we are Turks, we are Muslims” with slogans like “this is who we are, accept us, we are actually more Turk than you.”
The minister’s advisor started his speech by saying, “The Romani people migrated from India in the 9th century and first came to Iran, then…” I would like you to see the facial expressions of the Romani people who said, “We are Turks, we are Turks.” There was a deep silence and everyone looked at each other. “Are we Indians now?” This state of mind is a terrifying scene that emerges as a result of being ignored and oppressed.
An identity awareness emerged after the Romani Initiative. They started to say, “We have a language,” “We have a culture.” We can say that the policies being developed now are being built on this. During this process, other Romani groups that could not exist themselves also started to say, “We are Dom,” “Lom,” “Abdal.” This is important. If the Romani people embrace their own identity, if they realize that they are not the lowest level of society and that they are equal like other individuals, they can only express themselves.
On the other hand, a rapid civil society organization developed with the “Romani Initiative.” Following the initiative, 210 associations and 11 federations were formed. Interestingly, while other identities have difficulty in meeting with governors and ministers, Gypsies have suddenly entered the governor's and minister's office.
The state sees the Kurdish, Armenian and Alevi movements as threats according to their weight. Is the Gypsy movement a threat to the state?
They are definitely not perceived as a threat. Not only the state, but also the bureaucracy, opposition parties and the vast majority of society see the Roma issue as an innocent, conscientious issue. Everyone is trying to take responsibility for this conscientious issue. While doing this, not knowing the way and method is a separate issue. The state, the bureaucracy and the Roma are learning the way and method mutually.
So, what should we understand from the solution to the problem? Can we talk about a concrete model?
Actually, there are many models. Gypsies have been talked about and discussed in Europe since the 1970s and many models have been tried. While the Roma movement in Turkey is addressed with its socio-cultural dimension, in Europe it is more prominent with its ethnic dimension.
Are you also approaching the problem with its ethnic dimension?
No, we are not approaching the problem with its ethnic dimension. More precisely, the vast majority of Roma do not have such a desire. The dimension of the struggle is to develop social policies aimed at eliminating socio-cultural discrimination and poverty. Of course, I do not know what time will bring or take. The surveys conducted show that the majority of Roma describe themselves first as “Turk” then “Muslim” or first as “Muslim” then “Turk”.
There is no social demand on the Roma agenda to develop a policy based on ethnic identity and start from there. Roma have reached the advantage of language, culture, identity and being a group. Until yesterday, they always lived with disadvantages. In this respect, we are developing policies on four issues. These are education, housing, health and employment. Of course, we also include the fight against discrimination and the security problem that has developed recently. Because the fact that illegal means and illegitimate criminal organizations are directed to the neighborhoods where Gypsies live is a problem in itself.
In addition, the disappearance of traditional professions of Romani people and the lack of new job opportunities fall within the scope of criminal organizations and organizations that do illegitimate work.
Although the problem is deep-rooted and historical, it is a new issue and we are just at the beginning of the road.
Çetin Çeko
07.02.2014
